Photo Gallery
 Articles

Home
Introduction
Ayodhya Facts
FAQ's on Ayodhya
Ayodhya
All Evidences
Books & Reviews
Ayodhya & After
Epic Ramayan
Sita Shakti Kavya
Celebrations
Related Links
Experts' Opinion
MASTER BUILDER
MAKING of TEMPLE
Hinduunity.org
Bajrang Dal
Shiv Sena
Hindu Vivek Kendra

Home  | FAQ's on Ayodhya | From 20 To 30

Interview

By Rahul Singh,
The Times of India, 23 January 1998

(R): You gave an interview to the Times of India, which was interpreted by the BJP as supporting them in the destruction (of the Babri structure). Do you think you were misunderstood?

(N): I can see how what I said then could be misinterpreted. I was talking about history; I was talking about a historical process that had to come. I think India has lived with one major extended event that began about AD 1000 the Muslim invasion. It meant the cracking open and partial wrecking of what was a complete cultural, religious world until that invasion. I don’t think the people of India have been able to come to terms with that wrecking. I don’t think they understand what really happened. It’s too painful.

And I think this BJP movement and that Masjid business is part of a new sense of history, a new idea of what happened. It might be misguided, it might be wrong to misuse it politically, but I think it is part of a historical process. And to simply abuse it as Fascist is to fail to understand why it finds an answer in so many hearts in India.

"The truth governs writing"

Interview by Sadanand Menon

The Hindu,
5 July 1998.

(M): You have given some signals during your visit here this time about your - it may be a wrong word - your "happiness" with the emergence and consolidation of some kind of parasitic Hindu political order here. How do you sustain such a thesis?

(N): No. I have not done that actually. I have talked about history. And I have talked about this movement. I have not gone on to say I would like Hindu religious rule here. Ali that I have said is that Islam is here in a big way. There is a reason for that and we cannot hide from what the reasons were. The great invasions spread very far south, spreading to, you know, even to Mysore.

I think when you see so many Hindu temples of the tenth century or earlier time disfigured, defaced, you know that they were not just defaced for fun: that something terrible happened. I feel that the civilization of that closed world was mortally wounded by those invasions. And I would like people, as it were, to be more reverential towards the past, to try to understand it; to preserve it; instead of living in its ruins. The Old World is destroyed. That has to be understood. The ancient Hindu India was destroyed.

(M): Many things changed and many things overlapped in Indian history due to many diverse interventions. But do such processes over time justify the line of "historic revenge" with retrospective effect? Does it make that inevitable? What do you see unfolding before your eyes here today?

(N): No. I do not think so. It need not happen. If people just acknowledged history, certain deep emotions of shame and defeat would not be driven underground and would not find this rather nasty and violent expression. As people become more secure in India, as middle and lower middleclass begins to grow; they will feel emotion more and more. And it is in these people that deep things are stirred by what was, clearly, a very bad defeat. The guides who take people around the temples of Belur and Halebid are talking about this all the time.

I do not think they were talking about it like that when I was there last, which is about 20 something years ago. So new people come up and they begin to look at their world and from being great acceptors, they have become questioners. And I think we should simply try to understand his passion. It is not an, ignoble passion at all. It is men trying to understand themselves. O not dismiss them. Treat them seriously. Talk to them.

(M): But don’t you think this tendency is only going to increase - this tendency to whimsically and freely interpret religion or history at the street level?

(N): I think it will keep on increasing as long as you keep on saying it is wicked and that they are wicked people. And if we wish to draw the battle-line, then of course, you get to battle. If you try to understand what they are saying, things will calm down.


20. What is the rationale of the people who make a case that there was no destruction of a temple at Ayodhya while constructing the Babri-Structure?

The primary objective of such uniformed stand is perhaps to obfuscate and confuse the issue and thus cause confusion in the Hindu ranks. This is a despicable tactic frequently employed by people who cannot justify their cause. For example, Mr. Shahabuddin, the most visible and vocal spokesman of Babri Masjid Action Committee (BMAC) is on record to state that he would be the first person to lay the first brick for constructing the Rama Temple, if only it could be proved that the structure stands on the remains of the temple.

However when that was indisputably proved that the structure of a mosque was made after half demolishing an ancient Rama Temple, he simply wriggled out of his commitment by demanding that it should be established beyond doubt that Rama actually took birth at that place. He conveniently overlooks the historical truth that the Rama Navami has been celebrated exactly at that place for thousands of years - even during the harshest Mogul rule. If that is not proof enough what other proof is possible. No person in the world today can prove exactly where his great grandfather was born even if that event had been just 150 years old. To raise the same question about Shri Rama who was born some 10,000 years ago, is not only absurd but also mischievous.

Of course the rationale keeps varying as per the needs of the situation. It seems that the ultimate objective is to create and maintain a particular level of confusion. First the historicity of Shri Rama is questioned. When that is proved, the concept of Maryada Purushottam as applicable to Shri Rama is denied, it is said that he was an ordinary person, without attributing any special importance to him. When that is proved, it is denied that he was born in Ayodhya. When that is proved, it is denied that the Ayodhya where he was born is not where the present-day Ayodhya is. When that is proved, it is denied he was born at the spot where the Hindus have a continuous recorded tradition of more than 3000 years. And so on.

As to the rationale of the opponents of the temple movement, as former PM Shri Chandrashekar himself discovered, "they are totally unwilling to even attempt to demolish the evidence furnished to them by the VHP and thus project some semblance of rationale for the opposition". The VHP have most earnestly and sincerely tried to know their rationale but have drawn a total blank.


21. Is the Shri Rama Janmabhoomi a political movement?

Certainly Not. It is a remarkable aspect of the Hindu religion that in its known-recorded history of the Past 3000 years, for all the Hindu rulers and kings; religion remained insulted from politics. Even where kings changed religion it had no impact on their politics. There was no political motivation at all in the past seventy-seven attempts to wrest the Rama Temple from the Muslims even while the recapture of the site was done repeatedly by Muslim Rulers of the day. It was and it remained a religious battle all along even during the freedom struggle years when Rama Lala appeared in the temple. Hindu Mahants and Muslim leaders were fighting the battles in courts and they were making their respective claims without political backing from either side.

However the movement got drawn into the vortex of politics when former PM Rajiv Gandhi, fearing a massive backslash to his succumbing to the fundamentalist Muslims in the Shah Bano judgment, made an attempt to assuage the Hindu Community by opening the locks of the temple. It was this that created a political aspect in what was essentially a religious movement. The rest of course is history.

But the fact remains that for the Hindus; a temple at the Shri Rama Janmabhoomi is not an issue of mere bricks and mortar. It is an issue of Hindu cultural resurgence and identity, where Shri Rama, as Maryada Purushottam has a prime place. The movement is an expression of the collective consciousness of the Hindu ethos. On 9th November, 1947, Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel (Deputy Prime Minister of India), accompanied by another cabinet Minister Shri NV Gadgil, declared in a public meeting his resolve to reinstall the Jyotirlinga at the very same Somnath Temple which was ravaged, looted, and ransacked repeatedly by the invaders from Mahmud Ghazni to Aurangzeb. This was a classic example of the expression of collective consciousness of a nation.

That same day, Sardar Patel declared The Hindu sentiment in regard to this temple is both strong and widespread. In the present conditions, it is unlikely that the sentiment will be satisfied by mere restoration of the temple or by prolonging its life. The restoration of the idol would be a point of honour and sentiment with the Hindu public.Hence, for the Hindus, Shri Rama Janmabhoomi movement is not political, but an issue of national honour and sentiment. It is also the unfinished work of the great Sardar.


22. Prime Minister Shri Atal Behari Vajpayee said that there is no point in redeeming a 350 years old wrong now. Any comments?

As PM he owes a responsibility to the NDA agenda and may be he had that in mind if and when he said this. But if this logic were to be accepted, then the entire Independence Movement could as well be dubbed as a futile exercise in trying to redeem a "250 year old wrong of slavery" by becoming free. Where the honour and self-esteem of a Nation is involved, time- even centuries and millennia - lose relevance.

In this context given below is the excerpt of a letter Shri K.M. Munshi wrote to Nehru during the controversy surrounding the President inaugurating Somnath temple:

Yesterday you referred to Hindu revivalism - I cannot value freedom if it deprives us of the Bhagavad Gita or uproots our temples and thereby destroy of our lives.

Reconstruction of the sacred Somnath Temple was an expression of National Sentiments. One can find the same sentiment among the Hindus world over. Babri structure was a monument of our slavery. No self-respecting independent nation, which seeks to rise to glory, can tolerate such a structure on it land. Lastly, it is erroneous to call it a 358-year-old wrong. It did start centuries ago, but the humiliation, in the words of Sir Arnold Toynbee, "by the ocular demonstration of supremacy over Hindu’s holy of holies" is as hurting today as it was when it was perpetrated.


23. Will the Rama Janmabhoomi Movement not create communal hatred and destroy the Secular fabric of India and make a mockery of the country being defined as a Secular country in our own Constitution?

On the contrary, this Movement at this point of our Nation’s history provides the greatest opportunity to bring about an abiding and unprecedented degree of communal amity between Hindus and Muslims of India. Speaking at a huge congregation assembled at the Punya Tithi of his mother, in 1984, Shri Ashok Singhal of the VHP, had publicly declared unequivocally:

The great opportunity that Providence has offered to this nation for not only communal amity, but of creating deep and abiding bonds of love and understanding between the two communities. He elaborated the point by stating:

If the Muslims were to quit their claim over the three sacred-most sites of Ayodhya, Kashi and Mathura with love and understanding, and sincerely develop deep respect for Hindu sentiments and feelings, then, though Islam may vanish from every other land as it is said to be predicted in the Quran, it shall remain alive and vibrant in India till the Hindus exist in this land.

It is ironical that the self-seeking Muslim leadership miserably failed to grasp this opportunity. There is yet time to grab this opportunity and the Muslims of the country need to ponder and decide the nature of relationship they aspire to have with the Hindus. It will be a folly to think that the VHP Pariwar represents only a small section of Hindu society. They had better recall that the RSS/VHP Pariwar had collected over 9.77 crores (97.7 million) signatures supporting the demand that the Rama Mandir should be built at the same spot.

A body that can marshal close to over 9.77 Crores signatures and submit that massive demand of the country’s citizens to the President eminently deserves to be recognized as the true representative of the Hindus. Admittedly, the leftist news reporters and columnists and the pseudo-secularists were not in this 9.77 crores figure.

As for the Constitutional description of the Indian polity being Secular, it is to be noted that the founding fathers never inserted this word. They were aware that both Islam and Christianity were duty bound to actively convert all of mankind to their religious faith as per their respective religious edicts and therefore the complexion of the Indian polity could possibly not remain secular.

On the other hand, as enormous bitterness had followed the partition, they went out f their way by providing to the minorities the right to preach and propagate their religions, etc. (Articles 25, 26 & 30 of the Constitution). In the eyes of the founding fathers, those provisions were thought to be adequate to wipe out the bitterness as well as allay the fears of Muslims who had chosen to stay on in India. Indira Gandhi inserted the word ‘Secular’ later as a Constitutional amendment, purely as a camouflage to cover her downright communal (pro-Muslim) vote-bank politics.

It was a gimmick for the Muslim vote-bank. Even she could possibly not have been blind to the religious MANDATE in their respective religious faiths. Secularism in action being impossibility, it took the shape of out and out pro-Muslim and anti-Hindu stance in Government policies. For example:

  • Government contribution to the Waqf funds for paying the salaries on a Supreme Court prescribed pay scale to the Imams, Naib, Imams, Moazzins, etc., employed in all Mosques aggregating an expense in excess of 600 crores annually while Granthis and Pujaris are languishing in destitution in the Gurudwaras and temples.

  • Subsiding Haj pilgrims costing Government an amount of Rs.30,000 per Haj Pilgrim and while doing nothing for the Hindus who have to pay Rs.30,000 for Amarnath Yatra and Rs.40,000for Mansarovar.

  • Doling out Rs.30 lakh (by Indira Gandhi) and Rs.40 lakh (by V.P. Singh) to the Imam of Jama Masjid for the repairs of the Jama Masjid as against not only even a paisa (Indian penny) for repairs of far more ancient temples of Badrinath and Kedarnath but also taking over all major Hindu temples and appropriating the personal contributions of millions of worshippers through the Government appointed Administrators. All major Hindu temples have been taken over by the government dare not take over the Hazaratbal mosque or Chirare Sharif in Kashmir even if they are used as hideouts by the terrorists

    These are merely three samples of the scores and scores of similar Government actions to show what utter nonsense has been made of the word ‘Secular’ by Governments after Governments. Secularism has never been practiced in India. Yes! This word did succeed in reducing Hindus to second-class citizens in their own land. Where two aggressive major world religions, having access to billions of dollars, are avowedly bent upon converting all the Hindus of India into their respective religious folds, what chance indeed to the non-aggressive Hindu religionists have even for their survival? No! ‘Secularism" in action in this country means appeasement of the minority and adoption of anti-Hindu policies no matter which government is in power. The world secularism was thus already a dead even before it was introduced in the Constitution.


    24. Is it necessary to correct a wrong done in medieval times, when vandalizing holy site of the conquered people was a norm?

    There was no such NORM in the history of India any number of Hindu Kings expanded their kingdom but no such desecration of worship places was done by the order of the conquering King. Yes! It became a norm for Islamic invaders and Christian crusaders, because their religious edicts not only ordained them to do so but also promised tremendous dividends in the lives hereafter.

    In fact, by that reckoning, the entire independence movement from 1857 till 1947 would have to also get classified as a wrong act to correct a medieval wrong. After all, a lot of blood letting was done in the entire Freedom Movement also. Even the wholesale removal of huge statues of British monarchs after independence would get classified as a morally wrong act.

    When the Moors occupied Spain in the twelfth century, they not only demolished all the Churches, but also converted the entire population into Muslims. However, when the Spaniards won back freedom in the sixteenth century, they not only demolished all the Mosques and erected Churches, but also de-converted the entire population back to Christianity. No historian has ever commented adversely on this, still less called it wrong. When the Polish people won freedom in 1915 after about a hundred years of Russian slavery, they, (even though they themselves were Christians), promptly demolished the massive Gothic Cathedral that was built by the Russians in the Square of Warsaw. The Poles looked upon it as a monument of Russian victory and not as a worship place.

    On the other hand, no Mosques were destroyed nor any Muslim de-converted back to Hinduism when Shivaji wrested his Kingdom from the Mogul rulers. No, Destruction of the structure on 6th December, 1992 when it was not even a mosque for the past 58 years cannot be equated with vandalizing of religious sites. When this country was dismembered under British Supervision, a whole Nation of Pakistan was created on a two-Nation theory purely on religious basis. It is ironical that some Muslim leaders (and not the entire Muslim community as such) should grudge the Hindus the Construction of a grand temple at Ayodhya or the temples of Kashi or Mathura. Is this the way to express their gratitude for having been saved from the trauma of being uprooted and sent to Pakistan where their similar brethren are living as second-class citizens? They seem to have ignored their own Quran, which declares "Ingratitude" as the greatest of all sins.

    Let it be not forgotten that in the case of Ayodhya temple, the Hindus have made serious attempts to get back the sacred site by peaceful means - through negotiations and the judiciary. These attempts were frustrated for no fault of the Hindus. Not pressing the claim for the thousands of recorded temples that were demolished and on which Mosques are standing today is a generous enough concession to the Indian Muslims, who chose to stay on in India. Expecting the Hindus to give up their claims on the Rama temple at Ayodhya or the half-demolished temples of Kashi and Mathura is tantamount to conceding to barbarism when it was at its very worst.


    25. Does the destruction of the Babri structure not mean that the concept that ‘two wrongs make a right’ is accepted?

    Vandalizing the Shri Rama temple was doubtlessly the first wrong. But what was the second wrong?

    Undoing any wrong is an act of justice and is essentially a noble act. Just as tearing down the British yoke of slavery was the undoing of the wrong done by the British masters, so was the tearing down of the Babri structure (a symbol of Mogul supremacy) the undoing of a continuing wrong that was started in 1528. it is preposterous to equate barbaric vandalisation of the sacred-most Shri Rama temple with an act that restored the honour of a humiliated Hindu nation.

    Yes, if the Jama Masjid of Delhi, the Dargah of Ajmer or the Mosque at Hazratbal had been demolished, then doubtlessly it could be counted as an equitable second wrong. Not even the most knowledgeable ulemas (clerics) can call building a mosque wherein worship of Rama has been going on for over four decades. What got destroyed on 6th December 1992 at Ayodhya was no mosque and no second wrong was ever committed.


    26. In destroying the Babri structure, does it not mean that the present-day Muslims are being asked to pay a price for the mistakes of those who indulged in vandalism and destruction?

    Pray, what price have the Muslims paid? What have they lost at all? The structure that was destroyed in 1992 housed a temple functioning under Court orders upheld by the High Court continuously for the past over 42 years. The Privy Council has already ruled in the case of the Lahore Masjid when it had been in disuse for just 14 years that its status as mosque could not be restored. (See Case Law reports AIR 1940p. 116; ALJ p.552; 1940 OWR 1280; ILR 1940, p.493). in this structure, no namaz (Muslim prayers) had been conducted for the past 57 years. Of course, for the past 42 years it had been a functioning temple.

    An impression has been created that Kar Sevaks destroyed a Masjid purely because of the canard spread by Narasimha Rao on the TV in the evening of 6th December that "Babri Masjid has been destroyed." If indeed it was Babri Masjid, how is it that the White Paper prepared by Narasimha Rao’s own Government never even once called it "Babri Masjid" throughout its 122-page text?

    Nawab Wajid Ali Shah (1847-1856) attempted to end the dispute. He appointed a 3-member commission. One Hindu, one Muslim and the third one a representative of ‘Company Sahib’ (the British). The commission arrived art the conclusions that Mir Baqi had erected this structure after demolishing an existing building because, on the plaque it is clearly written that this is a place where angels descend. It contains the debris of the earlier structure. This commission did not call it any "Mosque".

    The Muslims never lost anything. It is only their self-seeking leaders who lost face when the myth of continuing to call that structure Babri Masjid got exposed.
    Even so, the heirs of Mir Baqi, the hereditary Shia Muttawalli Shri Javed Hussain, s/o Sahanwa, of the once upon a time Babri Masjid has already gone on record demanding the transfer of the Mosque to Sahanwa so that the site could peacefully revert to the Hindus. Incidentally, the Office Note dated 21st November, 1948, sent to Javed Hussain by the Sunni Waqf Board, U.P. the Waqf Board also acknowledges the Muttawalliship of Javed Hussain as the one valid Muttawali.

    Besides, Babar was an invader and no Muslim living in India today has ever been heard to say that what Babar did in 1528 was right. So to say that Muslims paid price on 6th December 1992 is a highly erroneous perception.


    27. Has the Shri Rama Janmabhoomi Movement disturbed the communal atmosphere in the country?

    After 1857, Hindu-Muslim unity was anathema to the British rulers. The communal strife reached its nadir during partition days. Riots - sometimes very vicious riots, - have constantly dogged this country, especially UP, year after year. Rama Lala had appeared in the sanctum sanctorum of the Babri structure in 1949; yet no communal disturbance took place. Not one single riot had occurred throughout the route taken by Advani’s Rath Yatra. There are videotapes of swarms of Muslims greeting Advani’s Rath Yatra. There were NO riots anywhere in the entire route.

    Yet, continuous propaganda is still being made Advani’s Rath Yatra left a trail of Hindu-Muslim riots. It is canards such as these that vitiate the communal atmosphere. The Hindus have all the right to reconstruct their old temple. If this causes communal tension the fault lies with those who resist the exercising of this wholly legitimate right.

    The communal atmosphere however, did get vitiated when some self-seeking Muslim leaders saw this Movement offering a great opportunity to get recognized as National level leaders of the Muslim community and some Hindu leaders saw in it as an opportunity to garner the Muslim vote-bank. In other words, communal atmosphere was vitiated only when this Movement was sought to be politicized. In this, Rajiv Gandhi stands out as the first in starting its politicization. This politicization reached its climax when Narasimha Rao spoke the greatest lie on 6th December 1992, by calling a functioning temple as the ‘Babri Masjid’ and then reaping the political harvest of dismissing all four BJP ruled States. The mischief was caused by the Prime Minister’s lie and not by the Hindus.

    Had this movement remained what it genuinely was - a religious movement, it had the potential of becoming an instrument of abiding communal amity (see answer to Q. No. 23).


    28. Why are those who oppose the construction of the Mandir at the Shri Rama Janmabhoomi site called "Babar ki aulad" (descendents of Babar)?

    One has to first determine how one views the Babri structure. Some of those opposed to the construction of the Mandir at the Shri Rama Janmabhoomi say that the Babri structure was a place of worship for the Muslims. Some others argue that it was a monument of our secular tradition. Any interpretation of the Babri structure, other than that it was a monument of our slavery, would clearly indicate that the Hindus are being asked to persist with the feeling of humiliation that Babar had inflicted on them, as the conquered people.

    The Babri structure was built after destroying the Shri Rama temple. Thus, those who oppose the restoration of the temple evidently wish to hold on to the memory of Babar. As Hindus feel proud to be the descendents of Rama and the inheritors of the culture and human values symbolized by Rama, it was only logical to presume that the protectors of the Babri structure ought to be feeling equally proud in considering themselves the descendents of Babar and inheritors of the culture and values that Babar represented. It was therefore; perhaps, that the opponents of the Rama Temple began to be called "Descendants of Babar, i.e., Babar ki Aulad".

    If for any reason, the opponents consider this epithet as abusive or derogatory, they should come forward and condemn Babar and his barbarous acts and begin reveling in the destruction of the structure he had created to humiliate the Hindus. But for this, they have to believe firmly in the absolute truth that the structure that got destroyed was no mosque at all since 42 years prior to its destruction. The Muslims anger would have been fully understandable had that building really been a mosque when it got destroyed.


    29. Would the construction of a temple in honour of Shri Rama create a confrontation with the Government in power?

    The conclusive legitimacy of the demand for the construction of a temple in honour of Shri Rama is the one that has to be decided first. The justification for the construction has been made on the basis of historical, literary, legal, revenue and archaeological records. This has been presented to all sections of society, including the Government of India and even to those opposed to the construction of the temple. Time and again, the Hindus have made sincere efforts to find a negotiated solution by proving the facts to the hilt. There were frustrated for no fault of the Hindus. All the relevant information is in public domain.

    Therefore, under the circumstances, and given the just merit of the demand for the construction, we do not see any reason for any kind of confrontation with any party in power. The people who are seeking a confrontation are those who do not wish to recognize the validity of the strong sentiments of the Hindus for their holy sites. Hence, the fault will not lie with the Hindus in this case even if a confrontation situation is forced on them. Hindu humiliation during the Mogul and British times was unbearable enough. But, continued humiliation in a free India is simply too much to expect from Hindu tolerance.


    30. What will be the reaction of the Islamic oil producing countries if the Shri Rama Janmabhoomi temple is rebuilt?

    Islamic countries do not have leaders with their own vested interests or leaders who need to garner any vote-bank. Hence, it is ridiculous to talk about reaction of Islamic oil producing countries. Serious efforts are being made to put across unadulterated truth regarding the whole affair and, once any foreign country, including Islamic countries, sees the Hindu stance objectively, absolutely no adverse reaction in Islamic countries shall be possible. Babri structure was no mosque, but in the History of Islam even a regular functioning mosque was ordered to be demolished when the site’s ownership was disputed. Demolition of a regular functioning Mosque for ensuring justice is nothing new in Islam.

    In Tariq-e-Islam (History of Islam), there is a recorded case of Damishk wherein the order of the two brothers had given a jointly owned land as Waqf for the construction of a Mosque. The Mosque had been functioning for several years when the elder brother died. Soon thereafter, the younger brother approached Khafila Omar-bin-Abdul Aziz claiming his land back on the ground that his brother had not taken his consent while making the Waqf. After verifying the truth of his claim, the Khafila ordered the demolition of the Mosque and restored the land to the surviving brother. This case occurred in the year 100 Hijri.

    In the case of the Rama temple, however, the place had not been used as a Mosque since 1934 and actually it was a functioning temple since 22/23rd December 1949, a truth which is crucial in judging the validity of the Hindu programme. All the four Schools of Muslim Jurisprudence have unanimously and unequivocally stated that no Mosque can be built on any land, which is not totally free from any doubt or dispute irrespective of the fact, whether the dispute occurred before or after the construction of the Mosque. In fact, as per Islamic theology, namaz performed in any disputer site is not acceptable to Allah. In the light of this, not only these sites, but also even Kashi and Mathura have zero religious value for Muslims, even if ignorant Namazis keep thronging there.
    The only important action to be taken is to project all the truth and Truth alone and any adverse reaction will be totally ruled out.



  •  
    © 2002 AYODHYA.COM . All Rights Reserved.